Of course the two are in such a framework naturally intertwined, but when the doctrine part takes over, the facts tend to become stretched. Catholic Stuff You Should Know shows this in their issue about the Holy Sepulcher. The way they tell about this Jerusalem church makes it sound like it is an exclusively Catholic church and since they claim to have been there in actuality why would you check up on this? A peek at Wikipedia about the Holy Sepulcher already points in another direction. I have been to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher myself and I can see this from my own experience: what you run into in this Church is Armenian, Greek, Syriac, Coptic and only in a very limited way Roman Catholic - as opposed to many other famous churches in Israel, such as those in Nazareth, Capernaum and Mount Tabor.More obvious is a small item about the etymology of Monday. (EDIT: I got this wrong. They discussed Maundy, not Monday) I thought: this is Moon-day and Wikipedia on Monday matches that expectation. However, this apparently is too pagan for the Catholic podcasters and so they propose two Latin, Biblical possibilities: Mandatum and Mendicare. Well, that is taking it very far from what would widely be considered factual and so, the conclusion must be: this podcast is about doctrine. As such, it is an interesting one. Find out about Arius, about the Ethiopian Church, Stylites, Indulgences and more. It is also short (no more than 10 minutes) and presented in a very free conversational style. (feed)
EDIT: As one of the readers pointed out in the comments below (thank God for comments); the issue was Maundy Thursday and where the addition Maundy comes from. Indeed Catholic stuff that I should know. Well maybe not absolutely have to, but it certainly helps to keep my feet out of my mouth.
12 comments:
Well, I wouldn't be too hard on them. For example, when you say that you run into Armenian, Greek, Syriac, Coptic ... and only in a limited way Roman Catholic ... what you will find that those are all su juris (in full union with the Roman Catholic Church). Yes, even according to Wikipedia. :-)
Essentially they are all part of the Catholic Church, of which the Roman Catholic Church is the largest part. I found this blog post more helpful than Wikipedia. Your comment was rather unclear about what the problem might have been other than those other rites (still Catholic). :-)
I didn't hear the Monday reference. Did they actually say it was too pagan? Or were they joking. Or, is that just your little joke (which some might note was not in a very ecumenical spirit ... hmmm). Or maybe they were just uninformed. It can happen, as we can see, to anyone. :-)
About Monday, they didn't even mention the mean stream etymology. And I think that is what you should be doing.
About the other Churches being Catholic also - I wonder how they feel about that themselves. My impression is that you use a rather formal argument.
From a witness on the side-lines in Israel, I can say that all the denominations guard their little piece in the Holy Sepulchre rather zealously. As they do in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. So zealously that over the last Christmas it came to blows.
And then the Israeli Police had to come in and bring order. In the light of those sensitivities I am not so sure how light one can take the podcast's description of the Church of the HS.
Hi Anne, I am delighted you are back in the saddle and able to review again.
I think Julie may have you on point of fact.
That said, it is sadly amusing to watch the various self-described Christians assault each other over who controls the different locations in the HS. At least one early pagan pointed out that no fight is more vicious than those fights between two Christians. Sad, but true.
I'd caution that just because a group says it is Catholic does not necessarily make it so. Indeed, as Julie rightly points out, there are many types of Christians in the Catholic communion. My experience of Catholic media is that the most liberal and the most conservative each claim to offer the real Catholic view. Catholics may have a Pope, but he does not monitor the publishing and podcast activities of over 1 billion people.
We may want to be cautious about asserting that- or at least implying – that doctrine and facts are mutually exclusive. This is a false dichotomy, thinks me. Is there not even a single item of doctrine that a person could not also understand as a fact? Granted, we enter into epistemology here as we discern how do we “know” anything. Yet, a doctrine need not be in opposition to fact.
As always, I delight in reading your reviews and value them. Semper Pax, John
Well John,
I I must, I'll stand corrected, but I will not give up just yet. I know that literally 'Catholic' means universal, but wouldn't you agree that in regular speech it usually means 'Roman Catholic'?
I really have to admit not knowing this for a fact, but my gut-feeling is that other 'catholic' Christians are not so willing to be readily co-opted into Catholic, by the largest of all Catholics. I have no idea what the formal position is, but the frantic dealings in both Jerusalem and Bethlehem seem to indicate otherwise.
As to Fact and Doctrine, I already wrote that they are naturally intertwined; isn't the word 'fact' related to the latin for 'to make'? However, since we are all aware at how pliable facts are, I want to plead that it is a matter of good manners in media, that you indicate where slide away from common sense. I think the 'Monday' example is indicative. It is all fine by me, if Catholic doctrine has it that the word is derived from some Latin term in the Bible (either Mandatum or Mendicare), but since that implies you are ignoring what is generally accepted etymology, I'd at least mention it, lest you are not deliberately isolating yourself, or blatantly pushing other ways of thinking out of the way. (As an aside: I find it all the more unconvincing since the Spanish, French and Italian are Lunes, Lundi and Lunedi. More moon than mandatum or mendicare, I'd say)
Anne
Hi Anne,
I make no apology (in the sorrow sense of the word) for the Catholic podcasters. I, too, think they are mmistaken on Monday. Alas, while I did not parse your post line by line, please do not let me misrepresent myself into a position where it appears that my silence on some aspect of the particualr Catholic podcasters production is also my consent or agreement. I am sure, if I listened to their performances, I would find much factual material to disagree with. From your explanation, I think they are wrong on the root behind "Monday."
As to types of Christainity in union with "Roman" Catholic Christianity. They can be in union and not necessarily co-opted. For example, they have particular rites and ecclesiology that is different from the RC modle, but they remain in union. If they were co-opted they would not retain their own distinctive litiurgies and ecclesiology.
While many will mentally prefix Roman to the term Catholic, it was not where I was going with it.
I apologize for having misinterpreted your writing on intertwining facts and doctrine.
More importantly, if I offended you, I also apologise. I think yo do fine work, unpaid work, that benefits many of us and I have no intention of ever disparaging that.
To an additonal point, inplied, but not stated in my previous post: I am at a loss to find reliable audio or visual media on matters pertaining to Roman Catholicsm. To a lesser extent that observation also applies to Christianity and other religions in general. Thus, I remain appreciative of your work in finding these sorts of podcasts for us to evaluate. Semper Pax, John
I think you are mixing the Armenian Apostolic Church with the Armenian Catholic Church. In the Holy Land the Armenian Apostolic Church has rights on holy places, amongst which the H. Sepulchre. The Armenian Catholic Church doesn't have; this Church however is in union with the Roman Catholic Church ("Latin" as they say here).
The Armenian Apostolic Church went its own way after the Council of Chalcedon- because of a different view on the nature of Christ. The Armenian Apostolic Christians are miafysites (and not monofysites)- the Council of Chalcedon decided otherwise.
I think one has to determinate the word "catholic church" from Julie's statement. I think if it is seen in the way of the Nicean Creed, as one universal true church, Orthodox Churches might agree. In the sense of "Roman Catholic Church" of which they would be a part- no. The word "catholic" is however not always used in a correct way, roman catholics of the Latin rite call themselves just "catholic"- and in that way denying the use of that word for other Christians.
I would not underestimate the amount of Orthodox Christians however- in the West they are often marginalized- unfortunately.
Hi Anne ... and everyone.
If you click through on the blog link I provided, it clarifies things. I will try to do so here, briefly (if such a thing is possible).
There are many "rites" within the Catholic Church. Meaning that they have their own approved liturgies and ways of doing things. This is how you can have the Roman Catholic Church with a celibate priesthood and the Eastern Catholic Churches with a married priesthood. But all recognize the pope and adhere to the same Catholic theology, etc. This is not a matter of my opinion. It is a simple statement of fact. Period.
The reason you or anyone always wants to put "Roman" in front of Catholic is that the "Latin" rite comprises 98% of the Catholic church so it is the one most people run into. However, this does not mean that the smaller rites are not just as valid or recognized.
Now there is the separated church, of which the closest are the orthodox churches, such as the Russian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church. They do not recognize the pope and there are some other liturgical and theological differences. However, they are still enough alike that if I were living in a town where there was no Roman Catholic Church (or any other rite that that is in communion) then I could get permission to go to the local Greek Orthodox Church and take communion and it would be considered as valid. So they are separated, but not at all as separated as, say, any Protestant denomination.
As for the Protestants they ... well ... protested. They left communion with the Catholic church and are separate Christian communities.
I was looking over the Wikipedia entry on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and it looks as if the Greek Orthodox Church is what is really in charge (if such a thing is possible among all those factions). So that isn't strictly Catholic in the sense that Catholic Stuff You Should Know was speaking of. However, what I really recall when thinking back over that episode is them speaking of their experiences and also explaining about the objection that the church is inside and not outside of the walls.
@Dina thanks for your contribution!
@John There is absolutely no need to apologize. Quite to the contrary. I am delighted to have triggered some discussion. Let there be life on the blog!
@Julie Read Dina's reaction again. I think there is an important point here: those Armenians that are partly ruling the Holy Sepulcher are NOT part of the Catholic Church in the widest sense. And as you point out: neither are the Greek Orthodox, who are also a major player in the HS.
And there is my point: by not mentioning them, the Catholic podcaster draws upon him the impression of being insensitive or ignorant. Both you'd want to prevent.
Hi Julie, of course I read the link. But I cannot agree with you, as your information is NOT correct.
The Eastern Orthodox Churches are NOT within the Latin/Roman Catholic Church, nor do they accept the Pope in Rome as their Pope. Also they do not agree with Latin/Roman Catholic Theology. As I wrote earlier, the Armenian Apostolic Church went its own way at the Council of Chalcedon.
The Universal ("Catholic" as in the sense of the Creed of Nicea) Church does NOT 98% consists of Latins. And as for the Protestants, they were excommunicated by the Latin/Roman Catholic Church, I would not state simply that "they left". As for taking Eucharist at another church, that is simply a matter of Latin Church law.
As for who is in charge in the Holy Sepulchre, you are also very misinformed!!!!!
The Armenian Apostolic Church has rights in that church, as do the Greek Orthodox, the Latins, and the Copts and Syriac Orthodox were granted rights by the Armenians. You should be aware of the fact that it is the Greek Orthodox Church which regularly tries to violate the status quo, trying to snatch more rights (from the Armenians etc). So the Greeks are NOT in charge, on the contary, they violate the status quo, and that causes problems. I'm sure you have seen fights on telly- all instigated by the Greeks. So dear Julie, your information is NOT correct.
I didn't listen to the whole thing, but I believe the word being discussed in the Catholic Stuff You Should Know podcast was not "Monday" but "Maundy." The Thursday in Holy Week is called "Maundy Thursday" because that is a day many Christians (not just Roman Catholics-- I'm Lutheran, and we observe this day, too) remember the night Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and commanded (hence the Latin "mandatum") to love one another.
I'd go with Wikipedia on the etymology of Monday.
Jane
Maundy??
Wow, I did not know there was such a thing. Yes, I am ignorant. It sounds a lot like Monday. I listened to the podcast twice in order to make sure I got this right.
Listening to it a third time - yes, Maundy Thursday, that is what they mean.
My bad!
Aha! Maundy! That is why I didn't know what Anne was talking about. Because I did know the word Maundy and mentally had spelled it that way. All becomes clear.
Dina, I did not mean to imply that Eastern Orthodox churches OR the Armenian Apostolic churches were part of the Catholic Church. At that point I had moved on, perhaps only mentally and therefore was leaving behind everyone else ... mostly because there was a distinct disinclination coming through in Anne's responses at that time to even accept that such a thing could exist ... to simply talking about the different rites that exist within the Catholic Church. There is the Latin rite but there are other rites as well. I am not trying to say that every Armenian church is part of the Catholic church, but that there is an Armenian Catholic Church. :-)
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